17:00:02 How are you, oh, really, that's
17:00:10 how are you.
17:00:10 I'm fine. How are you today.
17:00:13 All right, this is really pitch black outside know so
17:00:20 I'm really happy for the data and so that I can get out of office, but it will get better soon. think of 20 years, I think.
17:00:35 What time is it getting back out there.
17:00:39 It is, it is its pitch black.
17:00:42 My. Yes.
17:00:47 It's much later for you but wow yeah a lot further north.
17:00:52 5pm you got dr Noel go. so now it is really
17:01:10 high.
17:01:13 Thank you for having me. Nice to see a different group of faces.
17:01:20 See you. How you doing, yeah.
17:01:24 It should be darker in UK as well as I was just gonna say, because we're an hour behind you, it's just starting to turn but it's bloody cold. I'm really feeling it this year, so getting old.
17:01:38 Wow.
17:01:40 Well, and where are you he and are you up north, just in the middle of the country so Sheffield. Okay.
17:01:49 Hide the show and be an accent whenever I can. It creeps out if I have a beer, you know,
17:02:05 I try and hide it most of the time.
17:02:23 Usually we have a small talk room around, but I get all the names in the attendance tunnel system.
17:02:31 But I think the list is getting quite long today and it's good, and we have already two minutes in I think we have one more minute.
17:02:41 For the last people to arrive and then you'll start.
17:03:32 And while we're waiting Is there anybody. Anyone who likes to take notes notes today.
17:03:43 you volunteer in, maybe
17:03:48 I can do it now. Thank you, Beth.
17:03:52 Great, thanks.
17:03:55 All right. I'd say it's three after the hour I think we could start, and I will, I will stop talking and let Ian explain why he's here and.
17:04:03 And what what he's going to talk about.
17:04:11 Thanks for being here.
17:04:13 Okay, thanks Sheila.
17:04:15 And thank you for having me, as I said,
17:04:20 we've been asked by a disco, but also by the reshare projects to think about CDL so this this idea of control digital lending. Is it worth me just spending two minutes saying what I think what I understand by that term or Does everybody know
17:04:37 yes please if you wouldn't mind, very quickly. Thank you. Okay, so I, I have no idea if this humor will travel, so I'm going out on a limb here but I'm starting to think of CDs has been a little bit like teenage sex.
17:04:50 Everybody's talking about it.
17:04:53 You know, nobody, Nobody knows what's going on.
17:04:57 It's pretty it's pretty new. What I understand, of the idea is this.
17:05:03 I think the idea in some form has been around for a long time, but I think the pandemic has very much active as a catalyst for this.
17:05:10 And the idea is that if a library owns a print work.
17:05:15 It's not unreasonable that the library should take that item digitize it. Remove the print work from circulation and loan and digital proxy of the item
17:05:28 that process has been tested in various courts, and the legality of it is is still very much in flux, the legality of it in Europe is somewhat different to the legality of it in the USA, I think the USA or a little bit further along with asserting their
17:05:44 rights, what's reasonable.
17:05:49 So part of the work we're doing we've, we've commissioned to report into the legality of it. And we'll be publishing that I'll make it available to the folio community.
17:06:00 More generally, but to go back to the process, fundamentally the processes, the library owns a print copy of a work.
17:06:05 They also have some kind of a digital copy of it which they might have created or they might have sourced from somewhere else. The library will remove the print copy from circulation and story securely so that it can be accessed, even as a reference work,
17:06:20 work, and they will loan, a digital copy to a patron using some mechanism and using some sort of authority control, so I cannot afford to control digital rights management, to make sure that it could be alone for example for three weeks.
17:06:37 And as we've started to elaborate the stories around this, the thing which I'd like to ask you guys about is how would you like to model the process of removing a print item from general availability.
17:06:53 Because part of the problem is, you're not really learning the item you're learning digital proxy of the item so would you want to circulate the item, or would you rather the item was just represented as being out of circulation in some way.
17:07:05 And I don't really have strong domain knowledge about this or strong feelings about it. Really I just like to have a conversation about how you would best model this situation of I explained the question always like keep going.
17:07:21 Have I explained the question I just like keep going. I think it makes sense. Um, hello. Personally, I kind of would like to have a copy to the digital item on the original print record, so that if we have faculty members that say record sometimes are
17:07:35 links to record so they go to that same record instead of seeing available at XYZ library available for online, check out, and then their link below it has to be a mechanism for flipping back and forth between the two.
17:07:49 So, so I think we have actually discussed this in this group, and there is a status that already should exist in folio to sequester items.
17:08:01 I'm trying to remember exactly which one it is.
17:08:06 We would not want to do. I understand the the idea of that Thomas but I think that's more of a discovery layer issue because they're not in fact exactly the same item I'm just trying to see if I can log in here.
17:08:20 but we have discussed this in the context of both other workflows but specifically CDL right Can anybody jump in and remind.
17:08:34 David you're muted yourself.
17:08:36 I did I said Can anybody else jump in and Ramona I think I know what you're talking about here but I'll tend to remember it but I know that one of the statuses that exists now is restricted was the one that we were, I think that's the language.
17:08:49 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the, I think that's the language we we settled upon was, there's an item status called restricted.
17:08:58 That is intended for exactly this kind of purpose which is to say it is not loaned, but it is not available, you can't place requests on it.
17:09:09 Beyond having, you know beyond being able to leverage that items status I think that's as far as we got we just said there needs to be an item status that can be leveraged for this kind of
17:09:23 for this kind of thing.
17:09:26 Right. And obviously there's all kinds of implications for a potential workflow engine and integrations with other systems etc etc but that's, I think, as far as we've gotten in this group.
17:09:39 I
17:09:39 first Brooks has his hand up so yeah I was just going to jump in, I mean that works. If you're relying on a third party system to manage the CBl process.
17:09:51 But if we're talking about the potential reality of building CDO into folio or into a native kind of folio module system that there can be used with reshare or and folio or just one or the other.
17:10:07 I think that integrating that process more directly into the circulation flow is the more
17:10:19 I guess appropriate way of doing it, maybe don't say what you mean by that Brooks I don't think I quite follow where it would be checked out. I mean it would legitimately be checked out in folio checkout system.
17:10:30 So, this is a no i don't agree with that at all. So, I tend to think of these things as almost a bandwidth.
17:10:38 Right, so that if one is out the other is unavailable, but not really.
17:10:44 You don't want them on the same item same holding Thomas because then you've got an issue of permissions right. This person has permission to borrow a print object but do not have access to the electronic.
17:11:05 And so you need to be able to deal with circulation permission separately for those two things.
17:11:04 And you need to tie them together so that when this electronic object goes out.
17:11:11 The print one becomes unavailable and vice versa and when the electronic one is returned and I'm making air quotes and you can't see me.
17:11:22 You know, the print one becomes available and vice versa. So, I guess in my brain I tend to think of these as some kind of bandwidth, like thing. So I think bandwidth is maybe the wrong.
17:11:36 I mean I don't disagree with you in a sense that they should be linked in some way but I think bandwidth is a slightly different.
17:11:47 I think that might get confusing to people. I agree with you entirely David I just don't have a better metaphor for it, and maybe there isn't a metaphor maybe because this is a new thing right I mean, part of it is I can't imagine a CDO situation which
17:12:02 you're leaving a book on the shelf. You can't leave the book on the shelf right so it's not as though this is happening.
17:12:09 It's not like they're both sort of like whoever gets to the digital versus the physical first gets it right the physical has to be literally restricted sequestered unavailable.
17:12:20 Somewhere Someone has to have sort of grabbed it and locked it away. Right, yes or no.
17:12:26 Right. if it's off site.
17:12:29 You don't have to physically relocate it, you just have to borrow it from being requested. Right, if it's on site in theory, depending on the way your institution is laid out and the way you function, it could simply be marked as on the circulated and
17:12:45 left on the shelf. I mean, if that's questionable but it depends on the you know how your institution is judging legality so that somebody could consultant, but if they try to check it out.
17:12:58 It doesn't happen right and i think that's that's starting to get into some dangerous legal territory but I, you're right in it but
17:13:08 I'm also, I mean, along with the storage facility of what like what this past few years when libraries were closed down because of Co Op Ed, folks, we're still on the shelves and shelves weren't accessible.
17:13:19 I mean, that'd be a good case as well right and you're not gonna want to check out every single book.
17:13:26 But maybe you know going on and off course reserve is a better metaphor then the bandwidth, in some ways because you're talking about identifying in some way.
17:13:36 We are doing something with this print volume to make it unavailable or restricted.
17:13:43 And at the same time, turning the electronic copy on.
17:13:49 And we don't want to situate and you don't want a situation in which they're both on.
17:13:57 So in m&a in some ways I don't know that it matters.
17:14:03 I mean I agree with, with.
17:14:06 I absolutely agree that we, they need to be separate records.
17:14:11 Not, both for permissions and statistics, and you know, there they are just fundamentally different things you don't want to be, you know, if you can avoid it.
17:14:24 I mean, but now, now you know we're using checkouts you know most of us are using checkouts now for all kinds of things use that for Hillel and others.
17:14:34 But I think whatever it would be it would be, you would want to think about it as if you're building a process into folio directly you want something that sort of leverage is that fact and makes whatever the update is somewhat semi automatically rather
17:14:49 than
17:14:55 you have their their separate things I don't think that does, you know, one is a digital object and one of the and one is a physical object, they, they are not the same item record you just can't you just can't do that.
17:15:09 Right, which makes sense. I mean, they would be having them on separate item records, but in the same holding record but follow us aware that they are linked, so that only one can be active at a time.
17:15:20 Makes a lot of sense.
17:15:22 I do kind of like the idea, and kind of going back to what Mark said about using the check in process is I kind of like the idea of having the CBl records in folio because then you can tie circles to it, instead of having them like hard coded in the CPL
17:15:39 itself so like, you can set up.
17:15:42 Recall statuses you can set up loan periods for different things so you have a little bit more control over the digital collection.
17:15:50 I think I might have broke your covenant check could you, I could you elaborate on a little bit I think I must have missed something because I'm not sure that I'm following what you're saying there.
17:16:03 I
17:16:02 mean the argument is legal from at least in the US to me the legal argument for CDO being permissible under the corporate law is that effectively. The digital copy is the physical copy for copyright purposes.
17:16:21 So, but if your accounting for it in your system and everything as a separate thing.
17:16:30 I think you're weakening that connects your weekend in that connection and making it less.
17:16:38 I let me let me put this way, I think you're going to absolutely have to whatever you do, build in flexibility because I mean I don't want to stand here because I'm not a metadata management person but I don't think we would.
17:16:51 I mean, electronic records in folio and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, they don't live on a print holding.
17:16:57 Right, they have a whole separate structure today not.
17:17:01 And I don't think there I think there are many libraries that would want to retain that distinction, not start creating you but they're not the same item one item, like they are literally different, I mean like, I understand what you mean Brooks but I
17:17:15 mean, the legality of it is you are showing that you have restricted, and sequestered the physical item and therefore can make the digital item available not that they are literally the same thing because they're, they're not literally the same thing
17:17:33 right draw a distinction between the two of them for all kinds of different reasons.
17:17:38 Because I think a good metaphor for this, this gets to the old CDs concept, in general, is what if we could.
17:17:48 We had Star Trek transporters, and we could actually take the book off the shelf and transport it to instantaneously transported to the person who requested it.
17:17:57 That's effectively what CTOs doing.
17:18:00 We are talking We are, we are digitizing a book and providing that digital copy to the patron.
17:18:09 It is that book.
17:18:11 It's not a digital it's not a digital, it's not a digital version of that book, it's not an ebook, it's not anything like that. It is a copy, it is a it is a one is a one to one.
17:18:25 One can't exist without the other copy of that book, it's like, it's literally like we destroyed the original created a copy with the recipient with with patron.
17:18:35 And then when the patron returns it to us they're destroying their copy and giving us back original physical copy. I see what you're saying I disagree with you.
17:18:46 That doesn't that doesn't that doesn't actually match my understanding of the legal theory of CDs, which is that the legal theory of CDL, it does allow for the notion of a copy what it is saying is that you can make an electronic version.
17:19:08 copy of an item available, the same way that you can make that physical item available provided that the restrictions are the same as they would be with the physical items so I would actually think that far from being dependent on the notion that we're
17:19:11 replacing temporarily the physical item with the digital version of it you can make that digital copy available as long as you honor the same restrictions that would exist in the real world so we don't have those transporters we can't instantaneously
17:19:20 transport, a book from person, a, to, you know, like to to their new location and so I think ideally what CDO would do is, it's, it's not that you would match that ideal of the instantaneous transportation it's actually that CCL would build in friction
17:19:35 to match the reality of removing the book on the shelf taking it down to the circulation desk and possibly sending in a transit to a new location so I think it's very compatible with the idea of a coffee.
17:19:45 And in fact, think about it this way, if you have a single electronic copy. But you have three print copies. If you sequester all three of those print copies, you could allow three simultaneous users to check out that single have access to that single
17:20:01 electronic copy you're not making three electronic copies.
17:20:06 And each one matches the physical item you are exactly as Danny said you are, you know, creating a state in which the digital copy has equivalent friction, to a print copy and taking that print copy or copies, out of circulation.
17:20:26 I just I feel extremely strongly that you cannot use the physical item record as the electronic copy record that is just not what we would do at Chicago, full stop.
17:20:37 I did the catalogs would lose their minds, to be perfectly honest.
17:20:40 No. Yeah, but I mean I would lose my mind, to be perfectly on what
17:20:49 you're saying that's why.
17:20:51 What's the objection.
17:20:55 I mean all of the things that I've said that you need to potentially have different rules for the electronic versus the print that you need to have separate statistics for them right that they are, you know, and that that it right flies in the face of
17:21:10 the model of metadata management that we've so carefully set up in folio that's why they would lose their mind.
17:21:17 Well I'm just thinking that you would collect all of that and manage all of that at a different level in the process, maybe we'd be talking about changing making some changes to the way the item records and the way the loan process works.
17:21:31 You'd have to add you probably have a you'd have a digital request, you'd have been fulfillment digital fulfillment would be a great way of fulfilling requests, the loans would be would be digital fulfilled loans not, it's not alone.
17:21:48 I just I think that's a fundamentally, I, the physical item that's the whole reason we have the restricted status we had this conversation in fact that we didn't want to if we could avoid it, have to physically loan like well physically loan things.
17:22:04 Now to sequester them because that's the only real option that we have to work at scale but if you have integrations if you have a workflow engine if you have other things, then it would seem to me that what you want to do is rely on the fact that that
17:22:17 thing is not in fact checked out because it's not, it's, it's restricted it's sequestered.
17:22:24 And it's the digital copy that is in some state one way or the other and you do want them to sync up so that you don't have to constantly be touching the physical item, but you don't want to actually have to, you know, I don't want something sitting in
17:22:41 a remote storage facility physically but saying that it's alone.
17:22:45 That's because it's not like, that's just not.
17:22:50 If there's a fire it's still destroyed.
17:22:53 Yep.
17:22:54 And we still have it and that's an In fact I, yeah.
17:22:59 So, but what are you saying you're going to do with digital copy.
17:23:03 So, If the status on the print is restricted.
17:23:08 But now someone has the digital copy out.
17:23:13 Is that not loaned or what is it under flown well but that will the digital copy is, is through whatever thing it is I don't think it actually, I would argue that it doesn't take place through the circulation module I think it would be more akin to the
17:23:27 courses app, replacing other course reserves items and I think you also don't want to put yourself in a position where you're locking people into something if you have institutions that have for instance, a separate CL platform that they want to use with
17:23:53 It needs to be able to support that integration.
17:23:56 I'm sorry, David, I don't understand what you were saying about the anomaly should have courses app on this.
17:24:02 And then the analogy of, like, however you're planning to put DRM and lend digital copies that that is in my, my belief would be that that would be done through some separate app then the circulation now.
17:24:20 So, not just here where the courses app is not really working that way it's got LCI, so it will speak to any course management system and allow control through that, for digital objects but it doesn't have a lending process at all right I don't mean that
17:24:45 the courses that could be, I mean, like I'm talking about just literally at the base dumb level, have we created a separate app for Course Reserves we didn't just integrate it into the circulation app, the circulation at for physical reserves it's using
17:24:54 that I don't know what it's doing for.
17:24:56 But that's my whole point is just that it needs to.
17:25:00 However, you're handling that sharing of a digital copy with DRM and not being able to copy it, etc.
17:25:08 Like, there are institutions that already have platforms right anyone on from Caltech so so Ian is very much talking about how much more interesting the high level cons conceptual modeling at this point so I think, I mean,
17:25:27 which I think is fair.
17:25:30 But I do think that there there is like.
17:25:34 There is a fundamental model here of that we need I think that we need to at least agree upon or decide upon which is is is is the, You know is the digital copy of separate copy or not.
17:25:48 And we can then agree upon and there has to be some way of establishing that the print copy is restricted in some way, while allowing for integration of DRM platforms that are not folio while allowing for different institutions following different workflows.
17:26:14 And it doesn't sound like we're in agreement of that anymore. I thought we were.
17:26:21 I mean I think if we want let's let's step back to the high level stuff that he was trying to get at.
17:26:27 I mean, I understand. Brooks I understand your concerns but are we generally in Minnesota, is there a hands in the air and vote of, we want these to be separate objects, even though one is not a physical object, for the purposes of managing stuff in is
17:26:46 the reason Brooks is the main reason you're, you're having an issue with that.
17:26:51 Us legal issues.
17:26:57 That was an undergrad not an English wasn't it.
17:27:02 No, I think I think I know what you're saying.
17:27:07 It wasn't me, it was the person doing this conversation talking about was.
17:27:14 I can't remember which conference, it was last year, online stuff's fun mean if it reassures you I'm perfectly happy to have date Hansen, reach out.
17:27:24 Since he is one of the co authors of the white paper that we're all referring to.
17:27:27 Yeah,
17:27:30 I guess, I wanted to pipe in also the folks over here. Okay.
17:27:35 Um, yeah i mean that from Stanford perspective we maintained one item record similar to what Brooks was suggesting, just because of the legality.
17:27:45 We did not create a separate record or allow that to be viewed in any way in our iOS or discovery layer, as far as the public was concerned and staff internal.
17:27:55 There was simply one item that changed from whatever its prior location had been to simply CDL as its current location, and then all the handshake for landing material and handling the DRM and did it it was done through the discovery layer, and on our
17:28:12 back end, we handle all that programmatically so we didn't use our Alice at all.
17:28:17 end, we handle all that programmatically so we didn't use our Alice at all. Not saying that that's not the case here with folio if that's the direction the group wants to go. But for our purposes, We didn't want the iOS to get involved.
17:28:29 We wanted to be able to legally handle the files into parcel it out to the person with a specific ID at the university who would have access and. And isn't that and i and i think that the that whatever we do need to be able to support that kind of model
17:28:50 as well because i don't i mean i think i think actually that sounds more like what I'm arguing for which is the print copy has a single item record in folio or in whatever right and it's either loaned or it's available or it's restricted for CDO.
17:29:06 Correct, and then either you're managing the digital copy completely outside of the iOS through whatever system you happen to be using, or with this argument is where your this argument is saying we need to build something into folio that would allow
17:29:22 for that workflow to happen within folio but that's still entirely separate from the print item except in as much as the print item needs to be updated.
17:29:36 Be a status and or shelving location to note that it's not available and it's been sequestered.
17:29:43 Yeah, I think that would be a valid approach, I don't know the legalities of how you would represent that in your iOS, and be able to go back to the government and say, well, actually this, this isn't really technically a copy.
17:29:56 It's just a record but I'm sure that can be figured out from a legal perspective but from actual programmatic way to do it it's, you know, as long as we have a mechanism within folio to allow for that lending versus doing an external, I think, building
17:30:13 flexibility in is definitely of interest to me, rather than restricting one way or the other. So, my slow, do you have any examples that we can look into so we can see how its represented in search works.
17:30:25 Oh gosh.
17:30:27 I don't know if I have a specific example anymore because I left, right, as we're wrapping up this process and then it came back as a consultant.
17:30:34 I don't have a specific one but I could probably figure it out and send it to the group later. Okay, thanks. Yeah, sure. Well yeah, that's my notes here.
17:30:42 I don't want to many other words too much but going back to David because David again I remember that same conversation that you do with the item statuses but one thing that is relevant possibly here is that when we're talking about this restricted status
17:30:53 I think we were also talking about the hottest ative program, which is I would describe it as CDL like but not necessarily CBl, so that's another consideration that we might have polio.
17:31:03 A, which is that if we have materials that are available for the hobby trust interest program, it might make sense to treat them the same way as CDs and like he has to treat them differently because one, for instance, there is honesty trust allowed libraries
17:31:15 that we're open to.
17:31:18 They didn't require people to get back books available through the program right so if something was checked out prior to the library history and AIDS program, they have the trust didn't require libraries to retrieve those items prior to making the digital
17:31:29 versions available. That seems to me like a CPL like sort of decision to make, because I think under most DDL programs, you would want to retrieve those items, prior to making the digital version available.
17:31:41 And so I don't know also one of the things we need to be thinking about here is how we can have something with both of those concepts.
17:31:47 Right now, I think, I mean I agree with that and I think.
17:31:50 But I think that's part of the reason why we ended up landing on that restricted status was because the item status, would be the same in both cases right like if part of the issue is if you are, if, if, in the case of the hottie eat us CDs, like which
17:32:10 I agree it's it's not quite CL. If something is checked out but it's checked out you're not you, you are not or should not be updating the items status to anything other than checked out if it is checked out to somebody.
17:32:22 If the physical item is checked out to a person and it's checked out to a person and you don't want to mess with that item status because then you lose where it is and who has it, the restricted status would only apply to things that are physically that
17:32:34 you physically have and that you're not allowing to be alone, for whatever reason, I think that was one of the other reasons was, we said well maybe there would be other reasons you would want to restrict access to something we It was a sort of a catch
17:32:46 all for ECDL and other circumstances in which you would restrict access and prevent.
17:32:57 I'd have to go back to the spreadsheet, but it's like it prevents most requests types, I believe.
17:33:04 For me Please stop.
17:33:03 And I think that's a I think that's a great solution to that we've got a third party system that manages our CTO, and it needs to talk to our easy to talk to our system to sequester items in some way that they're not circulated anymore.
17:33:19 I'm just I'm just what I'm wondering about the something that's more native I guess that you know way if it's more part of its more.
17:33:30 First Lady than it has another system. Well, even if it's a first class citizen why wouldn't update the item. Why wouldn't it just update the item to restrict it.
17:33:38 Why would you want it to be a check out if it's not actually being checked out like why would you want to.
17:33:44 You'd have to have some kind of dummy patron record that it would check things out to, like, what, Why would you want that.
17:33:50 Well, I'm not sorry, I guess.
17:33:55 So while you're thinking, I'm going to ask another question, because I look at the record that he submitted, and this thing is saying it's physical copy is unavailable, but the digital copy is so has the things who Dibs just been locked away and we're
17:34:11 saying we're just only making them available electronically.
17:34:17 Yes. All right, so you physically sequester all the items that were available for CDO. So from my perspective, that what Dibs is do what I'm seeing here, Stanford's version of CDL is not what the rest of us are talking about, because I think, at least
17:34:36 for me. What I'm talking about is the, the patron gets to choose whether they want the physical copy or the electronic copy, you're not eliminating one or the other, except by the patrons privileges, or is it looks like Stanford has made a choice to digitize
17:34:54 digitize certain things and lock them away, Allah.
17:35:05 The Open Library.
17:35:03 That was a decision made these are remember these are items that are physically in our collection right I'm not arguing with another nation. I'm just saying it looks like that's the choice.
17:35:13 Yeah, yeah. And again it's going back to Brooks, it's, you know, you own one you loan one. So, you cannot land at CCL and Linda physically. Now that's different for something that your licensing, as an electronic resource.
17:35:29 That depends on your licensing agreement we may have licensing agreements for materials that we own, but we have it accessible through a different vendor or some other mechanism for the physical copies that we have digitized ourselves from our own collections
17:35:44 we lock price down. Yeah, but so I think, so maybe if we're talking about this, that, trying to get this at this higher level for en and Andrea and you're in your argument night and I get what you mean.
17:35:57 So in the same way. So think about it this way so in folio if somebody puts a paging request on an item it updates the status to page.
17:36:05 Right, which which stops it from being checked out by anyone other than the person who requested it, and it stops other page or it can stop other page requests from being placed on it.
17:36:17 In this context, you would have this digital option and if somebody checked out the digital option.
17:36:24 It would update the physical items status to restricted, which would prevent requests from being placed on it and prevent circulation, then it would be up to the individual institution to make the legal determination.
17:36:39 If they had to physically retrieve restricted items from wherever they are being stored, or not.
17:36:49 Does that make sense from what you're what you're talking about Andrew because then yeah like if it's if it's remote storage or close stack or in some other way locked down it status is restricted you don't have to do anything.
17:37:01 If it's out on the open shelves, you have to decide as an institution, whether you're going to do something so part of it would be you'd have to have some kind of report that would know when things are restricted.
17:37:11 Right, so, so in that rock right now, because it is a really good conversation and I hope you get a lot of little things out of it. But, I'm Holly CML and we have another topic today, but doesn't make sense to come back to it to come again and for you
17:37:31 or is that I don't know, that was my one closing question which is Thank you all so much I've got a ton of notes.
17:37:38 I think this work is going to go ahead in one shape or another so getting feedback from this group is really important and my question really was how should I keep the conversation open.
17:37:55 Should I just talked to you Yana when when I feel the need to chat, is that okay. Yeah, absolutely.
17:37:55 And we set you up on the agenda.
17:37:58 I also don't know how broadly interested folks are on this so it might be worth a subgroup of consultants for him.
17:38:06 That would be super helpful.
17:38:08 If anybody wants to reach out with me directly because I've done something really stupid to spare my blue says please just poke me privately, and I'll try and get a group of.
17:38:18 I'll maybe I'll solicit nominations for group to talk about this if that's okay, if that helps I can reach out and set up a group and the meeting as well make this up group of the resource access tickets at us or a working group.
17:38:33 That would be super helpful because we didn't get into the whole whole space thing but as an important part of this as well which we touched on right at the end so that'll be great.
17:38:40 Thank you so much. I think that would be helpful to just because then you could potentially bring in other people from our institutions who might, you know.
17:38:48 Yeah. Then, all of you, please let me know if you want to be part of that group and then give me a note in the chat here or in slack and I will set up.
17:39:00 And thank you so much.
17:39:02 Thank you so much. I'm gonna hang around if that's okay.
17:39:05 Of course, of course, and Holly I'm so sorry that took.
17:39:11 No worries. But now, to have you.
17:39:16 Yeah, I think.
17:39:19 Molly is also here, I think. Yes, she is. Oh that's good I checked to make sure
17:39:26 your question so I will just okay so I'm going to share my screen, because I have the questions.
17:39:34 I've put the questions in a Word document so you should be able to see my screen.
17:39:40 So what I did is Molly asked before Thanksgiving Molly asked a ton of questions. Some of them are related to notices, and some of them are related to fees fines, specifically and so I'm addressing the question she had related to fees and fines.
17:39:59 So the first the first question she had was related to last items. Does anyone know why it's still possible to declare an item lost after it's been aged to last.
17:40:11 So when an item is age to last.
17:40:15 It's usually.
17:40:18 You know, in most cases, it's not really lost its kind of a impetus to get the person the patron to return the item by saying, we're charging you $100 for this book.
17:40:33 So in most cases it's not really lost, but it is possible that the patron will will contact the library and say, Yeah, I did lose, lose this item.
17:40:45 So that would be when they would declare it last is when the patron has acknowledged that they did lose the item.
17:40:54 Because you want to know that the item is truly lost. So that's why it's still possible, because when you agent agent item to last. There are two possible results.
17:41:07 One is the patron brings it back in. I guess there's three the patron could totally ignore you, the patron brings the book back, or the item back, or they say yeah I lost it.
17:41:20 so that, that's just accommodating one possible scenario.
17:41:25 So if an item is declared loss, after it's been aged to last week, what we do is we cancel the age to last, build items, and we replace that with declared last fill in most cases it's the same thing, but it is possible to have a last item processing fee.
17:41:50 With age to last and not with declared loss, or the other way around.
17:41:56 So we do cancel the age to last, fees, and then we we talk we build the declared last fees.
17:42:08 So that's what happens, then.
17:42:11 So these two are related. Does anybody have any questions about about that.
17:42:20 Oh yeah.
17:42:20 I was gonna say not a not a question but just a just a further clarification.
17:42:25 It's the same thing that would have like if the patron let something age to last, and then put in a claim return and staff were then resolving that claim return is saying no we are saying you're responsible for it.
17:42:38 It would also become declared loss as opposed to age to last, I believe, or I think that was one of the intent. Yeah, if an item is ok so if it's already been age to last, and then the patron says, I returned it, we would suspend the last item fees.
17:42:59 And until it's resolved.
17:43:01 So, we now have, if you look at the fine history.
17:43:08 You'll see that there is a total suspended fees fines. So those are suspended.
17:43:16 If an item is claimed return and it hasn't aged to last yet, it never will. We don't allow claim return items to age to last.
17:43:27 And then.
17:43:31 Okay so, so in this way, the bill is retained but it's suspended.
17:43:39 The Associated blocks that, what would happen is, let's say your library only allows patrons to have, You know, five last items at any given time.
17:43:55 And then they block you if you have more than that, a claim return item doesn't count towards that.
17:44:02 So, if a person had a, you know, for items that were lost and not paid for yet. And then one claim return.
17:44:13 You know that would that have been age to loss. That one claim return would not count towards their block.
17:44:21 So, you know, so that's how that works. So the block.
17:44:28 You know it retains the bill, but not the not the block.
17:44:33 Because, you know, they may have other things that block them but a claim return item is supposed to be assumed that it's been returned until you resolve it.
17:44:48 Right, so the bill is retained but suspended.
17:44:51 Right.
17:44:53 Right. Everything is put on hold for for until this gets resolved.
17:44:59 Also,
17:45:03 say would there be a block in place though for like a maximum number of claims returned items, or is that something.
17:45:13 Number of claim return. No. But we do have maximum number of like overdue items, maximum number of loss items.
17:45:22 So there are other other blocks that could be in place.
17:45:27 So, yeah, the claims return could count against the maximum number of overdue items, because we're still rolling over doing right claimed returned.
17:45:44 His return or overdue they're just claims returned. Yeah, right, they're not necessarily overdue so there may be nothing wrong with it that person checked it out they had it, they were allowed to keep it for a year.
17:45:51 They brought it back two days later, and it's not showing up.
17:45:55 So it's possible that acclaim return has no bills.
17:46:01 No bills no blocks nothing.
17:46:05 I'm only in which, in which case, you know, it would just be handled outside of, you know, you don't have to worry about fees and fines.
17:46:22 It would just be, they all get handled the same. There's no no bills to worry about but I do think that aside from the bills in terms of the box I do think it would be helpful to clarify because for instance in Chicago, we would not want an overdue item
17:46:30 that has been claimed as returned to contribute to the overdue block
17:46:36 Yes. All right, yes all point of claim return is basically saying, lift any kind of box suspend anything that's bad about this item while we decide whether we you know whether the patron is correct.
17:46:47 Right. And we don't we don't we don't count claim return in any of the in any of the
17:46:57 block logic.
17:47:01 I'm Holly, could I ask quickly, you said, the fees would be suspended. If it's age to last. There's been a fee or refine and then it's claimed return.
17:47:11 How does that look like in the, the fine view.
17:47:16 In the fee fine view it. The fee fine will always be followed with the word suspended. Right. Okay.
17:47:25 And then we have a suspended total on the fine history right so you also.
17:47:33 Also in the user view, you can see
17:47:38 the number of suspended it'll say something like, to suspended fi fines for a total of 125 or whatever.
17:47:47 So you can see them in the user view too so everywhere where you can see fees and fines, it'll indicate what's been suspended. Right. Brilliant, and it does not get counted in the patrons total fee find balance, until it's resolved.
17:48:04 So the resolving of claim of claim return is kind of, I actually had to take a spreadsheet or a flowchart that Emma did before she left remember Emma and and use that to really understand.
17:48:23 So a claim return
17:48:26 is resolved in
17:48:30 probably for Lucy. Well, I don't know how many ways but anyway. So, there are two things that can happen.
17:48:39 There can be an action on the item, which means that the item could be returned. So it's checked in the item could be renewed, which of course they would have to get a patron of staff override to do that, but it could be renewed, or the claim can be resolved.
17:48:59 Okay, so, um, so there are multiple ways of doing that. So if the claim, if the item is returned at check in.
17:49:15 You would be, you would get a staff would get a note, a box that would come up and say, This item is claimed reserve returned.
17:49:24 Was it found by the library or by the patron.
17:49:30 So you would indicate that the library found it, or that the patron found it.
17:49:38 And that
17:49:42 that would result in. If the patron found it.
17:49:48 Um,
17:49:50 They could still owe a last item processing fee.
17:49:56 If the last item fee policy says do not return. The last item policy processing fee, so they could still oh that if it's found by the library, then everything's gone, you know, it's the suspended fees go away.
17:50:15 It's not counted as anything it's just, you know, it's just cleared up. Right. and that's probably also an overdue fine could be charged, if the patron founder.
17:50:25 That's true. Thank you for that reminder. That's right, because the overdue fine gets charged at the moment of checking. Right, right. Thank you for that reminder, um, then the other thing you can do is resolve the claim.
17:50:34 So you've been looking and looking and looking and you know you've come to a resolution. So in the faith in the last item detail record.
17:50:49 There is an option for resolving the claim. So this is different than if you renewed it or returned it, this is actually, we're going to resolve this.
17:51:01 At that point, you can, the staff member can either declare the item lost.
17:51:07 Or they can say it's missing.
17:51:10 So if they declare it lost the patron, the patron, the item is going to go from claim return to declare lost.
17:51:21 And they will pay the fee fines associated with the item being lost, they'll be billed them.
17:51:30 The reason I didn't say reinstate is because it what Andrea said a claim return item.
17:51:38 It's possible that it wasn't overdue or age to last.
17:51:42 So they wouldn't have anything to reinstate, so I'm just trying to make that distinction. But basically, if the library declares that last. They're saying that the patron.
17:51:54 They're holding the patron responsible, let's put it that way.
17:51:58 If the library. So go ahead, David, I was just gonna say there is a third option that been developed yet which is just canceling the claim return and putting the item back into the state it was prior to the claim return.
17:52:14 Yeah, we don't we don't have that we don't have that yet but it's in the it's on the, like it's SPECT out it was just not developed yet okay. Yeah, yeah.
17:52:23 Emma. Emma has a lot of things that she. She left us in good shape. She spent a lot of things out, which was really good.
17:52:32 Um, and then if the library instead, declares the item missing, which means that the library for whatever reason they believe the patron but they can't find the item.
17:52:46 Then I'm, then it does the fees if there were fees and find suspended they go away.
17:52:56 Because it you know at this point you're saying we believe the patron, we still haven't found it but we still we believe the patron.
17:53:03 Um, and so at that point.
17:53:21 So does that make sense.
17:53:27 Is there a workflow for replace my copies for friends returned, no replacement copies, is if that's a feature that we have not worked on yet. Okay, um, replacement copies I think the best thing to do is to.
17:53:50 What did I tell Sandy.
17:53:53 Sandy was asking me about that.
17:53:58 Well, I think, I think the best thing to do is in the fee fine you can write a note that a staff know that the person's replaced the item.
17:54:09 And you can cancel the.
17:54:17 The.
17:54:17 How are you, Yeah.
17:54:18 So I mean, I think, I think the having a replacement, copy, I think is probably separate from the claim return I think you would build the item as last because there are going to be replacement copies that haven't been claimed returned.
17:54:31 So you would want this to be an action that you could take on something that's either age lost or declared lost the other thing that you could do is a workaround for now is actually create a payment type of replacement copy.
17:54:44 Within folio and rather than messing around and like canceling last item fees you could pay the last item fee with a replacement copy.
17:54:55 But it doesn't for example let you then like automatically create a replacement copy processing fee, there is a there are places within folio to enter in the policies to say this is what the replacement copy fee would be but they don't do anything right,
17:55:13 right, that all has to still be developed. Yep. That's exactly right. Thanks David.
17:55:18 Um, so right now, people are using workarounds, but
17:55:24 we do plan on on implementing replacement copy.
17:55:30 Any other questions about fees and fines, Molly, are you okay now.
17:55:39 Yeah, thank you I trying to I had to reboot my computer at the beginning of this meeting so I'm trying to go back and slack and make sure.
17:55:49 Okay, so a lot of sense I did ask in the chat do we know if there's a story to kind of document. These expected behaviors for docs.folio.org. I think this is kind of it, an area where I get a lot of questions so I'm just wondering if we have plans to
17:56:10 document expected behaviors like this.
17:56:21 I should be for Aaron wanted.
17:56:25 Both recommended documentation, maybe.
17:56:32 Yeah, I can definitely ask that in the documentation channel to I just wasn't sure, because I know where there's efforts underway to upgrade the documentation from honeysuckle to IRS and Juniper and subsequent releases and I'm just not clear on how to
17:56:52 file this to make sure that like the great information presented today doesn't get lost in that effort. That makes sense. Um, I could probably do like a shell of a explanation in the in the.
17:57:08 Are we still using the same location for
17:57:13 for the documentation.
17:57:18 Or has it changed, I could put something out. That just gives basic information and then maybe somebody could flush it out later.
17:57:32 I think that'd be great. I'd be happy to follow up with Aaron and Menifee and just see where that should end up. If you don't. Yeah, that'd be good, that'd be good.
17:57:38 Yeah, absolutely.
17:57:40 We have our last minutes, I, I will gently off, father.
17:57:45 Devin reminder feed for the, If there is any progress in.
17:57:54 Okay. No, that's great because that is a very high priority right now today on finishing, something that was a higher priority, which is the actual cost stories.
17:58:07 And then I'm going to start working on the reminder fi.
17:58:12 Part of the reason this was delayed is because I moved across country and I've been working for about a month I worked very limited hours so I apologize for that.
17:58:24 But, yes, I'm going to be working on that next, and I will be in touch.
17:58:29 I mean I'm thinking it makes more sense to work directly with the German libraries, since that is something that is
17:58:38 especially for for you guys and not for the whole.
17:58:42 Yeah, I mean, Holly I understand completely, and we have a lot of things in documentation wise and anything you want, and just reach out and we will give you Okay, I have to get up to speed again I have a look.
17:58:58 Yeah, I have to look at what I wrote what I wrote up so far and then I'll be in touch.
17:59:04 Great.
17:59:06 Okay, thank you for being here and giving us the.
17:59:11 update and answering questions and everything.
17:59:14 Yeah, worries.
17:59:17 All right, that is it for today. Thank you, Ian and Holly for coming.
17:59:23 And, yeah, I see you all on Thursday for permission updates that will be interesting as well and then we will also talk about the, how we deal with the holidays, and when other meetings and wish meetings.